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Switching Engines
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dragonfly3 Offline
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Post: #1
Switching Engines
Due to the hostility that has plagued these forums over the past several months, that hostility leading to a great hindrance in obtaining support as well as chasing several experienced developers away from the boards, and the engine focus being turned towards other operating systems instead of completing and improving the current version of the engine we have realized that it will be highly difficult to complete our project with this engine and we are not confident with the direction or abilities of the engine in the future. We have chosen to no longer use Esenthel and are switching to a different engine which offers far more support, documentation, and a stable, working structure that is in place with no necessary improvements. I had set aside money to upgrade my Esenthel license in February and held off in doing so because of these issues. They made my team and I second guess our desire to stay with this engine. Esenthel essentially lost a sale and I hope for his sake that others do not follow suit, and that perhaps he learn from this experience when moderating and handling the forums. I also hope he listens to the concerns of the other licensed developers and doesn't place the PC OS version on the back burner because other developers do have the same concerns and have expressed them.

I have made a few friends here and I hope that they keep in touch. I wish them well in their endeavors (they know who they are). I know that there are others who can't stand me and I'm sure will be happy to see me and my team go. Regardless, Hedron Online will be completed and it's a shame that it couldn't have been done with Esenthel. I was a strong supporter in the beginning and it saddens me to see the direction things have turned towards.
04-02-2012 02:55 AM
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JonathonA Offline
Member

Post: #2
RE: Switching Engines
Sorry to hear you are leaving dragonfly :( keep me posted on Hedrons progress, you've accomplished a lot on the project already smile
04-02-2012 09:29 AM
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paviii Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Switching Engines
Good luck and I'll check your web site to see how your doing from time to time.
04-02-2012 10:16 AM
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Salival Offline
Member

Post: #4
RE: Switching Engines
This engine allow you to do all sorts of games, it's a one-man job and thinks he's doing a good job + engine is really cheap. I think he gives really good support, he often responds to all questions. About documentation it exist much of it, so not sure what you mean.

"Hedron Online will be completed and it's a shame that it couldn't have been done with Esenthel"

Thats the biggest load of crap I''ve ever read on a single page. I dont know where you got that, you should erase it because its crap. Realistically speaking you have no idea what it takes to create an MMORPG.

Inexperienced programmers (no offence I'm one to) believe the graphics engine is the hard part and go on making "terrains" or whatever. Its not.

But motivation and perseverance may lead you everywhere who knows.

ps, Tales of Ocean Fantasy Online is one successful made mmorpg using esenthel engine.

Well good luck.
(This post was last modified: 04-02-2012 06:36 PM by Salival.)
04-02-2012 10:49 AM
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dragonfly3 Offline
Member

Post: #5
RE: Switching Engines
(04-02-2012 10:49 AM)Salival Wrote:  "Hedron Online will be completed and it's a shame that it couldn't have been done with Esenthel"

Thats the biggest load of crap I''ve ever read on a single page. I dont know where you got that, you should erase it because its crap. Realistically speaking you have no idea what it takes to create an MMORPG.

Inexperienced programmers (no offence I'm one to) believe the graphics engine is the hard part and go on making "terrains" or whatever. Its not.

This is precisely what I was talking about when I spoke of the hostility on the forums. You'll never get serious game developers and keep them when you allow people to trash others.

For the record, my team consists of 4 very experienced programmers, one of which works for Trine Entertainment, a publisher of games for Sony, Nintendo, and the PC. It's not just me.

As far as support...can't get it anymore with Demostenes trolling the boards because as soon as anyone posts a question he rips them.

As far as documentation, there is no documentation for advanced mechanics. The teleport doesn't even work properly. Even after it was fixed it still doesn't work properly. The tutorials and documentation are starters but more advanced necessities require a much larger learning curve. Not only that, the server/client architecture is not MMO compatible unless you want your game hacked all to hell. It stores everything on the client side which is bad bad bad for an online MO.

But hey, as I said, some people on here hate me and are glad to see me go. I'll be laughing in your faces when Hedron is launched.
04-02-2012 05:01 PM
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Tottel Offline
Member

Post: #6
RE: Switching Engines
I'm sorry to see you go. :(

I wish you good luck with your game though, may you find the engine you're looking for!
04-02-2012 05:38 PM
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Dwight Offline
Silver Supporter

Post: #7
RE: Switching Engines
Always sad to see some go because of a wrotten apple or two.

Although we never met, dragonfly3, I wish you success with your project, and hope to see you soon on the forums on which I am also active smile

SnowCloud Entertainment - We are recruiting!
http://www.sc-entertainment.com
04-02-2012 06:04 PM
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Tobbo Offline
Member

Post: #8
RE: Switching Engines
You have a working server-based mob system? :O

Sorry to see you go Dragonfly3. Best of luck to you and your team.
04-02-2012 06:25 PM
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Salival Offline
Member

Post: #9
RE: Switching Engines
(04-02-2012 05:01 PM)dragonfly3 Wrote:  
(04-02-2012 10:49 AM)Salival Wrote:  "Hedron Online will be completed and it's a shame that it couldn't have been done with Esenthel"

Thats the biggest load of crap I''ve ever read on a single page. I dont know where you got that, you should erase it because its crap. Realistically speaking you have no idea what it takes to create an MMORPG.

Inexperienced programmers (no offence I'm one to) believe the graphics engine is the hard part and go on making "terrains" or whatever. Its not.

This is precisely what I was talking about when I spoke of the hostility on the forums. You'll never get serious game developers and keep them when you allow people to trash others.

For the record, my team consists of 4 very experienced programmers, one of which works for Trine Entertainment, a publisher of games for Sony, Nintendo, and the PC. It's not just me.

As far as support...can't get it anymore with Demostenes trolling the boards because as soon as anyone posts a question he rips them.

As far as documentation, there is no documentation for advanced mechanics. The teleport doesn't even work properly. Even after it was fixed it still doesn't work properly. The tutorials and documentation are starters but more advanced necessities require a much larger learning curve. Not only that, the server/client architecture is not MMO compatible unless you want your game hacked all to hell. It stores everything on the client side which is bad bad bad for an online MO.

But hey, as I said, some people on here hate me and are glad to see me go. I'll be laughing in your faces when Hedron is launched.

First I'm not hostility to you, second I do not trash you.

"For the record, my team consists of 4 very experienced programmers, one of which works for Trine Entertainment, a publisher of games for Sony, Nintendo, and the PC."

Thats good.

"As far as support...can't get it anymore with Demostenes trolling the boards because as soon as anyone posts a question he rips them."

Has nothing to do with Esenthels Support.

"As far as documentation, there is no documentation for advanced mechanics. The teleport doesn't even work properly."

Teleport is not an advanced mechanics, you change the position of the player.

Your other post:

http://www.esenthel.com/community/showth...p?tid=4481

You say your "Stuck" at moving an object? How you plan to make an MMO ?


"The tutorials and documentation are starters but more advanced necessities require a much larger learning curve."

The documentation covers everything you need to know about this engine, or check the header files.

"Not only that, the server/client architecture is not MMO compatible unless you want your game hacked all to hell. It stores everything on the client side which is bad bad bad for an online MO."

Esenthel engine is not a mmorpg server, mmorpg server is quite different and very komplex, what he has is a basic support for a normal network layer thats it. And the difficult to mmorpg is the server side.

"But hey, as I said, some people on here hate me and are glad to see me go."

I do not hate you / or want you gone, I just write my opinion.

"I'll be laughing in your faces when Hedron is launched"

This also proofs that you have no idea what you're doing, very immature.

Good luck.
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2012 01:59 PM by Salival.)
04-02-2012 06:53 PM
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Demostenes Offline
Banned

Post: #10
RE: Switching Engines
Only problem of EE is performance (rendering lots of similar objects, slow deferred mode) and lack of occlussion systems (horizont oclussion, at least portal occlusion).

EE is rock stable, gives you developement freedom. There is no problem to do MMO with it, but you must know what are you doing. In case of MMO 95% of programming is server side, EE is only client. You can (should!) develop your MMO without engine on some dummy client and then you can attach client in any engine you want. Dont know how? Dont do MMO.

There is no other engine on the market usable for indie RPG/MMO.
-Unity3d is unstable trash, it does not handle big projects at all (memory leaks, crashes, bugged extra paid version control, no streaming, etc...), claimed features does not work (or crash). Documentation is hopeless, nothing deeper is covered (we had no problems with this on EE). Visual quality is silly too (worst of all engines). Bug fixing and support = zero, there are critical crash bugs years ignored. For example Esenthel is very fast with bug fixing (fastest of all engines).
-CE3 has very long asset pipeline and generally requires bigger team
-UDK the same
-Trinigy would be interesting for RPG (best streaming on the market), but it is starting at $20k...
-Torque3d is even behind Unity
-Shiva is even behind Torque....
-Heroengine is very risky (no control over your content, hidden costs), bad support
-BigWorld Inde licence is fraud (indie sdk is 1 generation behind commercial, so majority of features is not there - it is not mentioned on the website and you cant buy indie source licence even if you want, they will just tell you it is not ready)

If Esenthel solves performance issues, EE would be only indie RPG/MMO engine. Other alternative now is $20k for Trinigy.
(This post was last modified: 04-02-2012 09:58 PM by Demostenes.)
04-02-2012 09:03 PM
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dylantan Offline
Member

Post: #11
RE: Switching Engines
It is always sad to hear people leaving. To dragonfly, I wish you all the best and best wishes. At times, seriously speaking, I do wanted to give up on Esenthel and move on to other engine. It is not because of the people/community but rather just as Dragonfly said, I find it hard to get more advance samples (I blame it on our lack of experience) and some of the Esenthel tools still relatively basic, plus performance is somewhat still lacking especially when working on older machine. However I still think Esenthel is stable, and I think its a good engine to start off with. I wish that Esenthel could take on more people to work on tools and more provide advance sample for beginners, this would help.

However allow me to give my "opinion". I do find Esenthel people to be very friendly, and some very knowledgeable too. I was with Unity for a while and I can tell you, it has more problem unresolved than what I can see in Esenthel. While not all problem are resolved here but most of the basic questions are answered, which kind of help. I see Unity people being less helpful and you can see lots more trashing there. This is why we gave up on Unity.

Not I am defending or taking "Demostenes" side, but in some ways, I don't really find much fault in what he said. Granted, he is not the most polite guy (from the way he wrote and express his thought) but I feel he is straightforward/direct person and from his post I can feel he is quite focus on the objective but lack of detailing. Also I yet to see he really trash anyone, so I believed that this is just some big misunderstanding. If you take positive notes, you can see where he is coming from, so people, I hope to see Esenthel do well and the community can grow, so I hope that we all can give other guys here a chance and see beyond just the word he/she/they saying.

Also, I never see Esenthel as complete MMO Engine but as a good client to start off with, and correct me if I am wrong, I believed that Esenthel was never intended to be full mmorpg solution in the first place hence lack of the security feature. The MMO solution that Esenthel provided is more for "basic" or starter which I believed should be used as starter not the full solution.
04-03-2012 03:02 AM
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