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Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
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DoerrSt Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-09-2014 08:12 AM)Tottel Wrote:  
Quote:You may use the Engine only as long as your license subscription is active. If your subscription ends and it's not renewed, you may no longer use the Engine.

To me, that's the biggest issue. If you look at the other engine (like UE4), they simply stop giving you updates if your license expires. But you can still continue to use the software.

On top of that, I think it would be great to have an estimated roadmap for the coming year. This doesn't have to be set in stone, and of course, bugfixes come first; but at least we get an idea of what we are getting for our money.

Features like web support, oculus rift and Esenthel Store in the engine are great, but they get pushed to the top without anyone knowing about it.
I like suprises, I really do, but I looked at the roadmap when Esenthel 2.0 was released, and most of the things that were at the top back then are still there. They have even moved down.

I think these are the issues that a lot of people struggle with, not the price.

In any case, good luck, it's exciting anyway!


I fully agree that the disabling of the engine is the biggest issue - I bought the engine just 2 months ago with the idea in mind: "Updates for one year" and I can use it as long as I want.
Now 2 months later I have the choice: Use it for max 10 months from now or beeing desupported after 2 months.

Both doesn't really make me happy. It's not really the price; it's quite cheap and I need to say Esenthel does a good job. Support is extremely fast and new additions like Linux or Web-Support for free are really outstanding.

The new licensing is, compared with the "other" big engines not that good from different points of view:

UDK: Pay $ 20 and you get the engine, source and you can use it forever - also if you cancel your subscription.

-> To be honest, I can't imagine that Esenthel can live with this. He needs money to live. So it would be nearly impossible to compete with this.

CryEngine:
- Use for free or - if commercial - pay $10- really, also here - I think it will be impossible to live from.

One remark to those both engines: Keep in mind that also if you cancel your subscription the publishing of games is not free at all. Both(?) will constantly earn money if you sell any piece of software - what Esenthel doesn't do.

Unity:

Here you have two possibilites:

Pay $ 75 a month for the engine, add $ 75 for iOS Pro and $ 75 for Android Pro and $ 25 for the team license. Which looks for me much more expensive than the license of Esenthel.

OR and here comes the difference to Esenthels new license

Pay $1500 and use the engine as long as you want. But also here you need to pay another $ 600 if you want an upgrade to the current version after a year. So also here it you have to pay again after a new version is released.

Personally I prefer the Unity model. Everyone can decide if he wants to pay $ 199 a year for a new update or if he prefers to subscribe and loose the access if he cancel his subscription.

I read somewhere that the "big" thing for Esenthel 3.0 is missing. Yes, it is - but why? Esenthel delivered Linux and Web-Support in a regular update at no costs. If he had hold this until the release of 3.0 we had a "big" thing. Wasn't it better to have this feature as early as possible instead of waiting for a 3.0 release?
For sure the Roadmap is a bit "faithless", getting something we can count on should be mandatory as Esenthel needs to calculate a bit with the income we need to have a raw roadmap what we get.
04-09-2014 10:44 AM
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MrPi Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I think most people here are unhappy with the way this transition was actually performed. More transparency and communication of events a decent time upfront would ease everyone's mood.
I'm looking forward to Greg's decisions based on the polls and the input in this thread.
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2014 03:15 PM by MrPi.)
04-09-2014 02:30 PM
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yvanvds Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I'm not sure this thread needs any more replies, but I guess it is the best way to show my support for this decision.

I am using this engine for a few years now. This year I started to take on some smaller mobile projects and Esenthel is just perfect for them. This means it is in my best interest that Greg can make a living out of it. Because if he can't I will lose all the time I've spent studying this engine.

Someone already calculated here how much montly licenses are needed for UK minimum wages. Quite a lot, it seems. And it is widely known that of all problems a person can have, financial ones weigh the most on what you're able to achieve. If the developer of this engine worries much about how to pay the rent, he certainly can't think about the next engine feature.

So it's in everyone's best interest that Greg makes a decent living out of this. Not only will the engine disappear if he doesn't (forcing you to spend time on something else) but also progress will be less if he has trouble paying his bills.

Taking that into account, the rest of the argument doesn't matter much. You might think some things should be done differently, but most of what I've read here is a bit subjective at least.

The only real way to for us to ensure we can keep using this engine is by making sure Greg stays in business. You can do this by buying one or more licenses or by convincing other people to buy it. In that respect it is a pity not more of us succeed in actually releasing a game. More games released with Esenthel would be the best advertising. And more paying users would mean more engine development.
04-09-2014 02:45 PM
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Tottel Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Nicely said, Yvan.

I know that I'll still get a license, no matter what. I still think Esenthel is a fantastic engine, and I'm very much willing to keep Greg's head above water. Financially, that is.

However, I'm just waiting to pick up that license until I know if he wants to do some changes after those polls. Just to make both our lives a bit easier.
04-09-2014 03:41 PM
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fuzzylr Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Yvan Wrote:The only real way to for us to ensure we can keep using this engine is by making sure Greg stays in business. You can do this by buying one or more licenses or by convincing other people to buy it. In that respect it is a pity not more of us succeed in actually releasing a game. More games released with Esenthel would be the best advertising. And more paying users would mean more engine development.

Ok, this thought process sounds a bit wrong. You don't want to loose the engine so you want to keep Greg in business?? That is not your responsibility. Your over extending your reach here and that is bad both financially and personally. It is on Greg's shoulders to make this engine succeed. I am not suggesting not to buy his engine. By all means if you enjoy his product support it. But at the end of the day It's on Greg's head to market his engine and to be successful. By reaching his target audience and generate revenue that will ultimately increase his user base.

I am not trying to be rude here. It is not nor will ever be our responsibilities to keep Greg supplied with money. That is the biggest fallacy I see on this forum. There are some serious concerns on this post about the new licensing model and I am sure Greg will work them out. However, our pricing and licensing should have no bearing on weather or not Greg can make a living. If Greg chooses to make a game engine for a living then he should be devising a way to generate more income to support his dream. Maybe even using a referral system. I believe the subscription based idea will help with his money issues. However, I have seen a lot of complaints that the money being put into the engine is not being used for customer based requests. This will ultimately put the engine out of business in it's own right as people will feel less supportive to get features they did not request. You can't please all the people all the time but you sure as hell can't ignore them either.
04-09-2014 04:16 PM
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Rubeus Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-09-2014 03:41 PM)Tottel Wrote:  Nicely said, Yvan.

I know that I'll still get a license, no matter what. I still think Esenthel is a fantastic engine, and I'm very much willing to keep Greg's head above water. Financially, that is.

However, I'm just waiting to pick up that license until I know if he wants to do some changes after those polls. Just to make both our lives a bit easier.

Same. I'm even (seriously) considering picking up the full source and contributing to development. I have a full time job, and I do game development as a hobby. I'm not rich, but I know that every hobby costs money. I personally think Esenthel is a good investment, even with the new subscription fees. A far better investment than that new cell phone with a data plan that costs $150 a month, right?
04-09-2014 04:24 PM
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yvanvds Offline
Member

Post: #82
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
@Fuzzylr: I'm not saying it is my responsibility. I'm saying it will cost me a lot more if I have to change engines. More even because other game engines i've seen are mostly not usable for the stuff I make. So yes, it is in my best interest to keep the engine going.

About the engine features: Greg could just as well have waited with the release of the linux en web features (among others) for 3.0. Those were no small improvements. Instead he released them when ready so that everyone could use them instantly. I think it is a bit silly to complain about 3.0 not having enough new features to warrant the new version when so much stuff happened in the months before.

But perhaps Greg could label the really new features he releases during the year as '4.0 beta'? That way there will be enough 'new' stuff the next time there's an upgrade smile
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2014 11:01 PM by yvanvds.)
04-09-2014 04:33 PM
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Pixel Perfect Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
(04-09-2014 04:16 PM)fuzzylr Wrote:  ...
Ok, this thought process sounds a bit wrong. You don't want to loose the engine so you want to keep Greg in business?? That is not your responsibility. Your over extending your reach here and that is bad both financially and personally. It is on Greg's shoulders to make this engine succeed.
...
I think we are playing with words here! Whilst it is not anyone's responsibility to keep Greg in business those of us who have invested greatly in terms of the learning curve and also happen to really like the engine have a vested interest in keeping Greg in business. It becomes a kind of symbiotic relationship or at least it should be which is what Yvan was really alluding to I believe.

I agree there are valid arguments being expressed from many quarters about the manner in which this has been done and the nature of the change but I for one do not want to move engines yet again, I would probably pack up altogether than do that again to be honest!

Everyone has a point of view and is free to air those and I hope Greg will take those on board but there is probably no way of him satisfying everyone ... but for sure if Greg can't continue financially then it is the end of Esenthel for everyone!
04-09-2014 04:34 PM
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KraaxLeNain Offline
Member

Post: #84
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Hi community,

For my part and I hope not to double opinion with someone else, since I cross read some of the posts, I'm not here to complain but to says that I think the previous economic systems was more suitable for some of the actors here.

I'm not here to grumbleor anything, and I understand completely the need to have a more stable and clearer income.

So far as I'm concerned I did acknowledged the fact that version were made with a yearly basis and therefor that support would have stop at the end, with new version release. And I took that into account.

I think the monthly basis payment somewhat can be bad for some of the coders :
-Making a game on EE 2.0 version March for instance, if you completed it and want to correct few bugs, you need to have access to the last version you used, if you don't want to replace a lot of your code since name changes happens. Hence having a stable release, with no more support and changes but still usable is a good thing in my point of view for a little team who wants just to makes it's product live. And having to pay monthly fees in order to provide small patches can be a stopper for small teams which are not monetizing their products.
-Not daily programming since it's not my main work for now, I feel "guilty" with the subscription marketing when I don't move at the correct pace or don't code a whole month, since now my programming time is not only costing time, it's also cost money (little money, but still ^^). The cost is not a threat, but the feeling is bad : buying EE.2.0 I'd say myself "Well this is a good product, I can make something nice with it, at my pace" , switching to a monthly basis payment it'll be a run more then a walk.
-With the year version system, I could choice whether the game engine was actually enough for my needs or if last release gave something more that might push me to invest more. This is important because the strategic choices of development made in past few months might not be the one expected by all the users. For instance I'm waiting for lots of the roadmap features to be implemented. there had been cool new features (web development, some android/Ios Stuffs [...]) which are good for the engine development and opening interesting doors but I'd personally like the key features of the roadmap to be implemented first since it seems that the roadmap stacks is overflowing and bottom priority items appears to be stuck there. With the every year new release, somewhat I got the choice to stick with my old version if I did not feel like the new one was an improvement for my development, whereas in subscription system I pay for a "time of use". So I feel more like a renter then a buyer (and I don't like to rent grin).

The version system was the one suiting my needs, but I'm no Pro-Programmer and my approach might not be one of the core target of a game engine. Still I wanted to share it.

I hope that EE.2 will still be fully usable (not talking of support, just talking of full version still available), and looks forward susbscribing the new version when I'll have more time to dedicate to my Esenthel projects (since I'm sure that Esenthel will make enough kick-ass new features for me to feel that I must absolutely upgrade my product grin).

To be clear I'm not here to complain, just to defend the previous economic structures, more suitable to the need of some (but not all) users.

I'd also like to state that's not essentially a money problem, since the prices are reasonable.

Keeps the good job done see ya all !
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 10:45 AM by KraaxLeNain.)
04-10-2014 10:35 AM
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rstralberg Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I like the new approach as it makes my yearly expenses predictable.
04-10-2014 11:52 AM
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para Offline
Member

Post: #86
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Not that my opinion matters one bit, but I'd have to agree with KraaxLeNain.
04-10-2014 04:38 PM
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Rubeus Offline
Member

Post: #87
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Why would your opinion not matter? The whole reason Esenthel re-priced his product was because the users voiced their opinions. Granted, not everyone can be pleased. But having your opinion expressed in a well-articulated argument will allow Esenthel to know what the mood of his users is, and potentially work on a solution. Nothing may come of it, but only a fool runs a business while ignoring the opinions of the users.
04-10-2014 07:06 PM
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Fex Offline
Bronze Supporter

Post: #88
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Happy to support Greg, I don't want him having to go to work in the salt mines to pay rent when he should be at home working on the next patch.

I have 1.0 and 2.0 licenses and think this is a great change. honestly I could complete my game with 1.0, but a few hundred dollars to essentially have an engine programmer working on your project is a good deal.
04-19-2014 12:23 AM
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Dwight Offline
Silver Supporter

Post: #89
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
I stayed out of this discussion for quite some time now, and this will also be the only post [granted I'm not getting a reasonable response] in which I will ventilate my opinion.

I have a 1.0 license, 2.0 license, and now the binary license [source license is not yet needed]. Although I also build worlds in other game engines, I keep purchasing the options that Greg offers, simply to support him.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have more subscriptions running currently! I have a subscription at my local gym for 33 euro's, which allows me to go there 24/7, 365.25 days per year to use their equipment. I get 1 professional trainer that every 6 weeks re-evaluates (updates?) my programm to my specific needs in order to grow stronger.
Greg is doing the exact same thing. This subscription model allows for a more steady income, as well as provide Greg with more motivation. Imagine how it is like to just go 3 weeks not selling a single license of just 200 dollars, and then have people continuously trying to get things as cheap as possible. I think you guys should try and understand how it is like. We are all in quite a luxorious position here, never forget that.

The world of a game designer, programmer, producer or engine creator [indie-level] is not an easy one; solely living of the money you make with this will neither support your happiness, nor will it assure your future, at least for most people. I have an education (studied more than 6 hours per day on average over the last 12 years, still studying for the next 4-5 years), and have a well-payed job already which allows me to pursue my hobby / dream. In the time I have been with Greg and his engine, I have learned how to create 3D Models fast, texture them, how to create user interfaces, and even how to use web-programming and a basic C++, not to forget I have had the priviledge to meet amazing people from whom I learned even more, and who challenges me to become even better.

Now that was deffinitely worth the amount I gave to Greg to help him build his engine over the last years, and I will continue to support him. Period.
04-19-2014 08:10 AM
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rstralberg Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Esenthel brand new Full Source Licensing
Very well put Dwight and I totally agree with what you are saying.
04-19-2014 09:21 AM
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